Match Rules

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Re: Match Rules

Postby VMoe86 » Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:03

SlicerITST wrote:Al, is that shot acceptable to play when pushed out wide?

Yes, that's what she said. :p
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Re: Match Rules

Postby L Sanchez MD » Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:17

I still think baseline lobs are occasionally the right shot to play.

Watch Nadal here. He hits 3 lobs in one rally. Two of them are moonballs, and only one is a true defensive (slice) lob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0dDL0Jzknk#t=2m25s

The first lob, from the forehand, is really a proper lob - it's topspin and hit right to the opponent's baseline. Nadal deliberately uses it as a defensive shot to give himself time to reposition.

Nadal *often* uses this shot, especially off the BH wing on clay courts, when he is pulled out wide.
It is different from the defensive lob, and it's a real shot. Most pros don't use it, but Nadal definitely does.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby spencercarlos » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:06

Otlichno wrote:That's a bit ridiculous.

Its not ridiculous.

With the ITST players, say 90% of the roast (unless you are Soderling or Del Potro 90% pace of shot) that defensive lob completly starts the point over, without any difficultly actually.
I never do this shot unless my oponnent is at the net, otherwise i think its completly unfair to play this shot, even if you are on the run.

Otlichno wrote:So when both players are at the baseline and you're being pushed side to side and are on the defensive. You're not allowed to hit a defensive lob?

There are certainly more fair ways to get out of trouble while being on the run, without disrupting rhythm, a slice shot or even B1+topspin shot they sometimes can find great depth and you can get back into the point.

I hope this is analyzed by the admins.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Algo4 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:11

Problem with short slices is that they're ridiculously easy to do if you remap short strike to one button, and they're even more ridiculously effective, specially since here we use no previews.
Anyway, probably gonna have to settle down with the fact lobbing while both players are in baseline is now forbidden, good decision there (for the same reasons I'd see no point in allowing short slices)
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Re: Match Rules

Postby L Sanchez MD » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 02:59

How do you even hit short slice?
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Otlichno » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 06:12

spencercarlos wrote:
Otlichno wrote:There are certainly more fair ways to get out of trouble while being on the run, without disrupting rhythm, a slice shot or even B1+topspin shot they sometimes can find great depth and you can get back into the point.


Again, there are so many ways to counter the lob. If you react fast enough you can rush to the net, and hit a volley winner.

Also, if you get your footwork right, you have a chance to hit a great shot, as the longer you hold down the button the deeper and more penetrating the shot becomes. The shot is only as effective as you make it to be.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Algo4 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 16:39

L Sanchez MD wrote:How do you even hit short slice?

b1+up (thus short strike), hold it a bit and then b2.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby djarvik » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:24

The success rate of a short slice is roughly 50%. What I mean by that is that if you play a short slice 10 times, 5 out of these 10 will result if a favorable outcome. This could be a winner or a weak reply from the opponent. Yes, it is effective, but being it is effective roughly half the time - it is acceptable. Keep in mind, moving further back when rallying increases the effectiveness of that shot, which is logical and acceptable - you make a choice to move back to cover other shots - then deal with consequences. I also noticed that going to the net after replying to this shot is a VERY viable option and suggest you guys try it.

Defensive lob's success rate is higher then that of short slice. Roughly out of 10 defensive lobs hit, 7 will restart the point. Yes, it is possible to volley this lob and even smash it at times, but most times, you will end up hitting a stroke and enter a neutral rally.

@ L Sanchez MD - indeed your video illustrates that defensive lob, a successful one. But it is a very small data sample. You need to take a full match, then isolate these situation where the player attempts in desperation to reach the ball and compare it to the successful reaches. You will then see that the success rate is really low on this shot to even be executed property or fall inside the court, let alone opponent not destroying it with a easy put-away.

The problem is not the defensive lobs themselves, they are valid shot and tactic, but rather the success rate behind them, when viewed both, from point of execution and response.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby L Sanchez MD » Sun, 02 Dec 2012 04:44

djarvik wrote:The success rate of a short slice is roughly 50%. What I mean by that is that if you play a short slice 10 times, 5 out of these 10 will result if a favorable outcome. This could be a winner or a weak reply from the opponent. Yes, it is effective, but being it is effective roughly half the time - it is acceptable. Keep in mind, moving further back when rallying increases the effectiveness of that shot, which is logical and acceptable - you make a choice to move back to cover other shots - then deal with consequences. I also noticed that going to the net after replying to this shot is a VERY viable option and suggest you guys try it.

Defensive lob's success rate is higher then that of short slice. Roughly out of 10 defensive lobs hit, 7 will restart the point. Yes, it is possible to volley this lob and even smash it at times, but most times, you will end up hitting a stroke and enter a neutral rally.

@ L Sanchez MD - indeed your video illustrates that defensive lob, a successful one. But it is a very small data sample. You need to take a full match, then isolate these situation where the player attempts in desperation to reach the ball and compare it to the successful reaches. You will then see that the success rate is really low on this shot to even be executed property or fall inside the court, let alone opponent not destroying it with a easy put-away.

The problem is not the defensive lobs themselves, they are valid shot and tactic, but rather the success rate behind them, when viewed both, from point of execution and response.


You're right. My point was just that the shot does occur sometimes. Within TE, the implementation is not correct.... perhaps it could be modified so that hitting lobs on the run is even more difficult. Then, if someone decides to, they could hit a baseline lob on the run, but with a low chance of success.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby inseedious » Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:35

I want some "more precise" opinions:
- is FH slicing in order to change the rythm or to force an error allowed when used very often?
- is FH short slicing allowed, as a sort of "winner" or approaching to the net?
- is short slicing allowed just to make the opponent return a weak shot and then pass him?
- is moonball really fair? I think that using it during a shot without a reason is unrealistic.
- are drops or intended short shots when your opponent is at net (not to pass him, but just to make him do an error) fair? A lot of times I build up perfectly the point and then go to the net to close the point, and the opponent made a short shot or a drop on my legs, forcing me to a volley error.
- are drops used as a winner (not in drop+net or drop+pass tactics) really unfair if used more than 2-3 times a game? I think that a drop resulting in a winner is not just drop spamming, but is a smart choice to punish an opponent behind the baseline or to catch him with wrong foot.

I'd like to receive several feedbacks about these particular situatiosn, because a lot of sets changed because of strange tactics.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby L Sanchez MD » Mon, 07 Jan 2013 04:45

Check out this replay and see what you think of the baseline lob.

For me, this looks perfectly acceptable, given the circumstances, clay-court, playing defensively against an aggressive player. The resulting shot is very short, and immediately put away.

Just feels realistic to me. I tried to copy a fairly typical Nadal-Djokovic rally (which you can see in the video above...except Nadal's baseline lobs are better).

It happens in the first game...ignore the rest of the match... I don't usually play as Nadal and got slaughtered by Djoker on Master 2 :D P.s., if you do watch, you'll notice the insane amount of times Djokovic uses dropshots.......AI issue.

Here's the demo file.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwLBeB ... TdhMG90UWc

Let me know what you think.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Clog » Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:35

What should we do when our opponent uses cheesy tactics or isn't fair-play ? Because I just found out reading this topic that one of my opponent in Qatar wasn't respecting the "fair desync rule". What can we do to make him punished (almost sounds exciting, doesn't it ? ^^), or basically to have more justice ?
I didn't see it in the FAQ :)
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Clog » Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:57

inseedious wrote:I want some "more precise" opinions:
- is FH slicing in order to change the rythm or to force an error allowed when used very often?
- is FH short slicing allowed, as a sort of "winner" or approaching to the net?
- is short slicing allowed just to make the opponent return a weak shot and then pass him?
- is moonball really fair? I think that using it during a shot without a reason is unrealistic.
- are drops or intended short shots when your opponent is at net (not to pass him, but just to make him do an error) fair? A lot of times I build up perfectly the point and then go to the net to close the point, and the opponent made a short shot or a drop on my legs, forcing me to a volley error.
- are drops used as a winner (not in drop+net or drop+pass tactics) really unfair if used more than 2-3 times a game? I think that a drop resulting in a winner is not just drop spamming, but is a smart choice to punish an opponent behind the baseline or to catch him with wrong foot.

I'd like to receive several feedbacks about these particular situatiosn, because a lot of sets changed because of strange tactics.


Maybe my opinion isn't the most important, but here's what I think anyway.

- is FH slicing in order to change the rythm or to force an error allowed when used very often?
--> I don't really see why it would be forbidden. I understand that some players can have trouble dealing with this but it's also pretty risky for the one who does that if he plays against someone who knows how to take the control of the rally after it.

- is FH short slicing allowed, as a sort of "winner" or approaching to the net?
--> Well let's ask it differently : is FH short slicing interesting if I can't use it as a sort of winner or approaching to the net ? Slicing is MADE for that, I guess. I think that wouldn't make sense if we couldn't.

- is short slicing allowed just to make the opponent return a weak shot and then pass him?
--> I guess it's pretty the same thing...

- are drops or intended short shots when your opponent is at net (not to pass him, but just to make him do an error) fair? A lot of times I build up perfectly the point and then go to the net to close the point, and the opponent made a short shot or a drop on my legs, forcing me to a volley error.
--> That's a tough one, but I think using a dropshot and using a short shot are two really dfferent options. We never see ATP Players trying to hit a dropshot when the opponent is at the net. Plus I'm not sure there is a way to win the point if your opponent does it, technically I mean. Trying to volley it anyway will lead to an UE and going a few steps back to proprely hit it won't work since your character won't prepare a hard strike but a shity one.
On the other hand, I don't really see why short shots would be forbidden since this is a fair way to TRY to win the point (dropshots will make you win it anyway), as lobbing and passing.

- are drops used as a winner (not in drop+net or drop+pass tactics) really unfair if used more than 2-3 times a game? I think that a drop resulting in a winner is not just drop spamming, but is a smart choice to punish an opponent behind the baseline or to catch him with wrong foot.
--> Totally agree with that. If using a few dropshots is considered as a cheesy and unfair strategy, then dropshots are useless now.
Last edited by Clog on Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Match Rules

Postby AlexJasmins » Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:50

Clog u took the words out of my mouth ;)
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Re: Match Rules

Postby Martan » Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:34

the most annoying thing about drop shots is when opponent make drop shot and then he rush the net, I think it is most unfair cause I can't remember if I ever seen it in real tennis :)
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